Saturday, December 6, 2008

Men's Division Two: Week Six results

Skerries 4 (Alan Early 2, Brian McMahon, Ronan Gannon) Weston 0

Skerries took top spot with a comfortbale 4-0 win over Weston, moving two points of clear of Bray and taking advantage of Clontarf's abandonement. Hitman Alan Early banged in another pair with Brian McMahon chipping in while Ronan Gannon got his third of the season.

Weston, meanwhile, struggled to build on their mideweek win over Trinity and stay in midtable.

Bray 0 Avoca 0
Bray and Avoca provided the rarest of scorelines in division two, with neither side creating enough to deserve the points with the hosts losing their 100pc record. They were without James Hardiman and Xavier van Gaver as well as long-term injury victim Andy Macken while Avoca showed some decent falshes of play which suggest they belong slightly further up the table.

Clontarf P Navan P
Clontarf have appealed to the Leinster Branch this afternoon on Rule 85.E to have their game against Navan played to completion from whence the gane was abandoned after they had led 4-0 at half-time with Navan down to 10-men after Shane Dooley's red card.

The rule covers courses of action to take in the case of abandoned fixtures with a continuation given as one of five options. Tuesday has been mooted at this early stage as the date for completion of the game.

Naas P Dublin University P
Dublin Uni were another to be denied by the weather as they led 4-2 against Naas with the game entering its last quarter. Rare scorers Ben Hewitt and Jason Bryan will hope for a continuation - the former getting a hat-trick - to make sure their goals stay in the record books.
*Pictures courtesy of Deryck Vincent

39 comments:

Anonymous said...

Has there been a precedent set for a game to be continued once abandoned with only half of the match played? Will be an interesting call from the fixtures committee!

Anonymous said...

Fixtures comm are hardly going to make Navan travel to Clontarf for a 35 min game! That would be ridiculus, Surley there will be a ruling made that all matches that were abandoned within 3/4 distance today in all 9 divisons will be re-fixed for full 70 min games!

Anonymous said...

If game was abandoned will Shane's Red card still count.

Anonymous said...

Why was the Navan player red carded?

Harrold said...

I don't have to hide my name and write anonymous: Harrold de Jong, coach of Clontarf. Some facts:
weather was perfect, see video, pitch too. Not frozen, even in the shaded areas. Ball test: drop the ball from 4-5 ft and it should bounce instead of dropping 'dead'. As it did. We had no problem with the pitch, till just before half time they had some times problems with the pitch but that had more to do they way they play/run. We make quick small steps to slow down, and they 'fully the brakes'.
Red card was a bit hush bit Navan should have had already two yellow cards but were 'saved' by the umpire who couldn't find at that moment 'what he needed'. Annoying is when the coach, Mrs Navan, start talking to the umpire regards the pitch: 4-0 down, a red card etc. What do you expect ? Captains should have been consulted, did not happen, decision was made after talking only to the Navan coach. Not a word to us, Captain/Coach/Manager.
Bad practice in all aspects.
And then I am supposed to say nothing or even asking a normal question ? If this will be the general practice than we better take a 'winter break' till end February because this can happen every week. Not the best to get the best performance in all our leagues.

Bill, Clontarf HC said...

It would be ridiculous to re-fix any game for 70mins where a player receives a straight red - if the game starts from scratch nothing in the cancelled game "ever happened", i.e. no goals are recorded etc but then a player has to be suspended for a red card in a game that "never happened". If the goals/time elapsed don't stand then how can the red card stand? And you cannot let any red, let alone a straight red, go unpunished. Surely, and this is the main point, you can't pick and choose what part of a game "happened". It has to be all or none, and if it's none the player sent off gets to play again and there are no consequences for a red card received??!! Therefore if the red card gets punished the game must have taken place and you cannot go back and start from 0-0/ 70mins.

We play this game for enjoyment and I put it to all players that it is surely an unfair advantage/dangerous precedent to restart such a game - consider the situation where it appears a match is about to be called off eg due to cold (which may well happen again in the next few weeks), it would give you a blank cheque to get sent off and play in the re-fix. Not fair.

You might say my opinion is not objective due to Clontarf being 4-0 up but I'd be interested to see the counter arguments to start again from 0-0. It's not Clontarf's fault the game was cancelled (we wanted to continue and believe the pitch was playable) or that is was our home fixture and so to make Navan travel for 35mins is perhaps unfortunate but it could easily have been their home fixture so I believe that “travel for 35 argument” as stated in a previous comment for a 70mins re-fix carries no weight.

Anonymous said...

what was the red card for???

Anonymous said...

Our game was cancelled at 1-1, it's going to be replayed regardless of whatever the scoreline was. Red should probably still stand too imho.

It's tough but there you go...

Anonymous said...

Most senior clubs these days have their own internal discipline systems, most of which would internally suspend any player for a given amount of matches on receiving a red card, I would be very surprised if this matter was not delt with internally by Navan and that Shane Dooley will receive a club suspension which would prevent him in playing in any refix of the abandoned game.

Anonymous said...

justice was done in the navan game being called off. a clontarf forward commited a far worse offence (hit out at a navan player) then shane dooley whos red card was completley unwarranted as the clontarf player came in from the wrong side and was hit by shane dooley as he swung for the ball. also the penalty stroke that was awarded clearly hit the CLONTARF!!! player NOT a navan player! these events lead to navan losing shape and concentration.
i believe if these events had not occured navan could have played well as they have done previously against skerries. also the pitch on the dugout side appeared unsafe for play from my view from the side of the pitch.

a neutral onlooker at the match on staurday.

Anonymous said...

Quote from previous string on this site from a weston player regarding the recent ihl abandoned matches and also making reference to a previous abandoned match which had to be restarted -

''im guessing that they have to be restarted at 0-0. it's really harsh on annadale and monkstown but thats the way it is. happened to us (weston) a few years ago against three rock rovers.was 2-2 at halftime,but called off due to the pitch being frozen.
November 30, 2008 6:05 PM''

Id imagine that on precedent the branch will have to refix and restart both abandoned matches from last weekend.

Anonymous said...

In response to the comment about Dooley receiving a punishment from his own club. From what I understand, the red card was for a violent conduct incident and in my opinion this sort of action needs to be dealt with by an established and experienced committee in these matters. I would completely agree with 'Bill Clontarf HC's' sentiment above that a potentially dangerous precedent could be set here, made even more dangerous should an internal punishment be accepted. In most cases it becomes obvious when a match is going to become abandoned and if a player wants to deliberately harm one of the opposition he may do so and face nothing more than a slap on the wrist from his club!!!! This is completely unacceptable and as such, the match simply must be resumed from where it was abandoned! As for 'Making Navan travel for 35 minutes' that argument is ridiculous, surerly the less time they need to travel for, the better as this will allow for a later start(I'm assuming it will be midweek) and allow the players time to get from work. Pitch hire these days is expensive and hard to get. I believe the Trin/Naas game was abandoned with 8 minutes to go!!? Again all logical thinking dictates that this game should be continued and not restarted!! It looks like we are in for a cold couple of months and it is very easy to get in an umpires ear about the condition of the pitch if things aren't going your way. Umpires have an extremely difficult and thankless job. They are responsible for the safety of the players on the day and it is human nature to react defensively and responsibly when people are badgering them on a safety issue. If these games are restarted instead of continued I can guarantee this will lead to many, many unnescessary abandonments in the future as players/management sniff an opportunity to play a 'get out of jail free card' and have another crack of the whip by guilting umpires in to making a marginal call!!! All logic points to a continuation to preserve not only fairness in these two games but also countless games in the future as we face into a pretty chilly few months...

Anonymous said...

A full refixed match means the red card won't stand. The pitch was slippy but probably playable. Justice for Navan after their player was previously struck on the knee by a Clontarf player in retaliation to an accidental trip. The Clontarf player escaped sanction because the umpire had no cards and didn't use his colleague's! Later in the match, Contarf were awarded a penalty stroke after a shot was deemed to have hit a Navan player en route to goal. It actually clearly hit a Clontarf player's body - neither umpire saw this, and Clontarf, understandably, if unfairly, didn't correct them (I'd love to see their video of the match though!). They went 1-0 up from the stroke. I'm not complaining about umpires or unsportsmanlike behaviour - I just wish to point out that Navan had been so hard done by in the first half, even without the sending off, that a refixed match seems like justice to them at least. To be fair, Clontarf should have few grievances - given their table position and squad, they are more than capable of beating Navan in a full re-fixture anyway. I just hope this time it will be in a fair, evenhanded match.
Ru

Anonymous said...

The comment that insinuates Dooley wanted to harm an opponent is unwarranted and dangerous. Dooley attempted to clear the ball after an opponent had made contact with him in a tackle. Given the sunlight and proximity of the player to each other, Dooley missed the ball and struck the player's stick. The card could be viewed a harsh but possibly justified.
As for all logic dictating that it should be continued, all precedent dictates that it should be fully replayed. Simply stating that something is logical doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to.

Tom said...

Ru,

Are Navan going to internally sanction Dooley for violent conduct? As you point out in your post, if all things are to be fair then surely the club, and you as captain, cannot be seen to be dismissive of something that only serves to damage the sport and gives out a terrible example to anyone that was watching. I think the regular suspension for a straight red card is 3 matches.

Anonymous said...

Re: above comment. Skerries should also have had the squad and league position to beat Navan but they didn't!!! That's sport... To refix a match on the grounds that one team were on the receiving end of one or two bad decisions (which, to be fair, they were) or that the other team in question should be capable of beating them anyway is ludicrous!!!!

The match was called off in reasonably controversial circumstances. The feeling of the majority of people there was that the pitch, while 'slightly' slippier than usual in very isolated pockets, was still completely playable. It appeared that the umpires were influenced by some (and in fairness not all) of the Navan players/management into making a very harsh call.

The match needs to be continued, the red card needs to stand and we can all get on with what is turning out to be a very intriguing league campaign.

Anonymous said...

The comment stated that Clontarf are more than capable of beating Navan - not that they would beat them, Skerries found that out. The comment was merely suggesting that Navan may feel that justice was done after two bad decisions left them trailing, this meant that their gameplan was disrupted. Navan's result against Skerries was due to frustrating the opposition attack and they couldn't do that vs clontarf after going behind.

Anonymous said...

Anything to say on the clontarf player who should have recieved a straight for a violant retalitation to being fowled by a navan player????

Thought it was a very poor excuse by the umpire when questioned on him not recieveing a card that he replyed with i qoute: ''I put my hand in my pocket and all i felt was my wallett, so i couldnt send him off because i had no cards''

On one hand i applaud his honasty,as most would have simply claimed that they didnt see the incident. But on the other hand, how bad was this call when all he had to do was consult with his collegue down the other end who had no worries about flashing the cards and get him to send off the clontarf player!

Dotsie said...

Great to get back to winning ways for us with a convincing win against Weston. We were also missing Ali McMahon and Liam Colvin so a great result for us. next 2 league matches are huge with bray at home and Clontarf away either side of christmas, oh and the little matter of Pembroke in the cup in between!

Anonymous said...

there is a precedent for this in the ladies section. Railway played Trinty in a midweek match a few years back. After about 20 minutes(score 0-0) it was clear the pitch was frozen. Dave Bane(trinity coach) brought this to the attention of the umpires at this time. The umpires(both from Railway) as well as the Railway coaches were hell-bent on seeing the fixture through due to an existing catalogue of back matches.

Before half time railway scored 2 goals and went in at HT 2 up. During HT Dave protested that the pitch was unplayable and dangerous - a trinty had already broken her arm playing on a frozen pitch earlier in the year.

Next came the funny part - after remonstrting with the umpires Dave did not go to his teamtalk but instead picked up a hockey stick and carved into frost "FROZEN PITCH!!" and took a picture of it. This was done on the part of the pitch where the umpire normally situates themsleves.

Upon noticing this and a Railway player snotting themselves the game was called off.

Guess what - Trinity won replay 1-0! Watch out clontarf - not going to be easy to do again!

Anonymous said...

What is happening with the Clontarf v Navan match now? is it being resumed from the second half?

Anonymous said...

Still waiting on a decision from the fixtures committee...Can't wait.

Anonymous said...

There's been an awful lot of talk about precedents, but I assume that in the past there has been matches that have been restarted AND matches that have been continued AND matches that have been awarded to one of the teams AND matches that have been declared a draw etc. etc. etc???

Stato Steve, any idea if that's the case??

I would have thought that these cases are treated on an individual basis and as a neutral I can see an argument for both outcomes in both of the matches in question.

In my humble opinion, both matches should be picked up where they left off mainly because:

- there was only 8 minutes left in trinity game and it would seem unfair to restart it
- the red card in the Navan game needs to stand and the player needs to appear in front of the disciplinary committee or it opens a massive can of worms.
- from what I understand there is a massive backlog of fixtures in leinster and it is easier to play 35mins and 8mins of hockey respectively than full matches
- postponed matches must be played/continued within 15 days of original date and with various cup weekends looming, these matches will have to be played midweek and at that time of the evening, further frozen pitches are likely and therefore more difficult to get full games in.

It's anyones guess which way the branch will rule on this one but it sure is an interesting debate

Anonymous said...

Postponed matches must be replayed but there does not seem to be a sililar rule for abandoned matches! Do these two come under the one heading or are they seperate?

I think in light of the recent IHL and League abandonments a strick and easy to follow set of rules should be made up and not have 5 different possible outcomes to an abandoned match.It should be made black or white so nobody is in any doubt.

Personally i think an abandonment should become a result if a certain time, lets say for example 3/4 of a match has passed at the time of abandonment and any less than that should be a complete replay of the game.

Cards (Yellow and Red) issued during a game which is abandoned should stand in terms of a suspension for that player but for the re-play both teams should start and hopefully finish with 11 players!

Intresting call to be made on this one, keeping in mind that the previous weeks IHL games which were similarly abandoned were ordered to restart matched at 0-0.

This was not in keeping with EHL rules which stated that the games should be continued at the nearest opportuinity (Same day if poss)!

But that rule was overruled by the IHL because the IHL is played on a season long basis rather than a tournament basis. Similarly the Leinster league is played on a season long basis and i would immagine that a similar ruling would be made as the one previously in the IHL.

Anonymous said...

Ammend previous comment-

''Postponed matches must be replayed within 15 days''

Anonymous said...

My understanding of the IHL is that the ruling for that was made under the guidelines of other all Ireland competitions and therefore they are to be restarted. Within leinster there appears to be no such guideline and instead there are 5 possible outcomes to an abandoned match.

Totally agree with previous post about having a strict guideline on these sort of things (along with many others). It just seems that so many things have to go to a Leinster Branch Committee. This serves to slow the process down completely and without guidelines for the branch, the outcomes are very hit and miss and open to personal interpretation.

How difficult would it be to have something along the lines of.

1. abandoned in first half-match replayed
2. abandoned between 35-60 minutes-match continued at next axailable date within 15 days
3. abandoned after 60 minutes-result stands

Simplistic obviously but I'm sure with a bit of thought something could be put in writing

There are so many incidents that have to be referred to the branch that could be easily solved by having a section in the handbook. That way everyone would know where they stand before the match is even started

It is quite a serious issue at the moment cuz with another few weekends of weather like the last few we'll all be playing re-fixes in July!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

"Personally i think an abandonment should become a result if a certain time, lets say for example 3/4 of a match has passed at the time of abandonment and any less than that should be a complete replay of the game"

don't think that would work. a team that is say 3-2 up with 15 mins to go should just be given the game? seems very unfair as the game is far from over. i think they should all be resumed from where they left off but after the ihl ruling i doubt they will

Anonymous said...

the 2nd best comment till now which makes sence. But ...don't be surpriced, Leinster Branch decision:
match to be replayed at 0-0 ! , 19.00 start(no pitch available yet) and were told just 21.30 tonight !
No answer/solution regards the red card standing or not. If this is the way Leinster wants to 'rule', good luck.A shame. I have given up after 11 years.Sad.

Anonymous said...

Must be pure coincidence: beating Skerries, at HOME ! Therefore a goal difference of -16 ! But that is just unfortunate. Tells the story for me.
Good luck Navan, that is the way to do it.

Anonymous said...

can people not write comments 1000 words long?!!?!

Anonymous said...

Quote from previous string "weather was perfect, see video, pitch too. Not frozen, even in the shaded areas"
The pitch was frozen on the sideline beside the dugouts as a number of players had slipped on that side of the pitch and it was rock hard.

Anonymous said...

I am hearing that the Branch has now changed its ruling and is now insisting that the match is continued at 4 - 0! What a joke! Make your mind up and stick to it!

Anonymous said...

Navan have been told only this morning(less than 12 hours notice) that they must continue the match at 4-0, presumably with ten men. Given the number of matches that have been fully re-fixed due to the weather, I find his ruling diasappointing. I agree that one set of rules should be applied concerning abandonments. Thanks to the one person who wished us luck -Navan travel to the capital at least twice a week to train and play against teams who view them as second class citizens of the division. They've worked hard to get where they are and it's heart-breaking to be faced with such inconsistencies in policy and in application of the rules both on and off the pitch.

Anonymous said...

I love the way Navan were told this morning that they have to travel for 35 minutes of hockey on a frosty evening to play at 4-0 down, 11 men and that the match is fixed for 7, making it next to impossible for them to actually get there on time or with enough time to warm up and prepare. Superb...

Anonymous said...

Navan had the opportunity on Saturday to play the full match but insisted that a perfectly playable pitch was dangerous. The right decision has been made. This match was always going to be refixed for midweek. Maybe Navan should have thought this through before opting for the easy option last Saturday. What precident would this have set if a straight red card had been ignored becuase of an abandonment? I imagine the only reason this match isn't being replayed from the start is because of the sending off. Maybe Navan should look to themselves before trying to pass blame. As a club, they have made great strides forward in the last couple of years and I hope that they continue to improve, for the sake of maintaining a division 2 if nothing else.

Anonymous said...

So does this mean the same ruling will stand for the Trinity v Naas game....it would seem unfair that, with only 8 minutes left to play, the match would be started from scratch given the Clontarf v Navan outcome?

Anonymous said...

So Tom i presume that Rob is in the middle of his 3 match suspension after he was red carded against suttonians?

Anonymous said...

I agree, match should be played out with all goals/cards etc. Bad management from the Branch. I am left with, half a match, 4 goals scored and no chance to extend our goals scored. I am convinced that we would have scored at least 2 goals. I am not happy at all with this ruling. Look forward to Saturday, Weston away, a pitch likely to freeze up quick. Score a goal and settle ? A pity, they are missing the point.

Tom said...

Anonymous,

I presume you are referring to Rob Abbott. As per the decision of the Disiplinary Committee, Rob has served his ONE match suspension. The club internally suspended him for the Navan match. The 2 umpires from the Suttonians match recommended that he should not be sanctioned any further as their was no intention to cause harm. A sensible decision from the Leinster Branch!!